Hi All,
I am in the process of building a traditional water heater in my on going construction, Hande ole as it's called in kannada, bought the copper vessel from AS char street as well.
The way it was planned was to have 2 branches welded into the copper vessel for Water Inlet & Water outlet and have a ball valve to control the water from over flowing as this would be constructed in the terrace. However the shop person said we can make this a pressure system by sealing the top lid with another copper plate by welding it, having both inlet & outlet valve in the top lid itself.
I am sure this would work if it's an air tight system and would be very efficient as it would heat the water very quickly. This would be more like a solar water heater concept.
1. Has anybody installed such a system at your place or seen it work.
2. Is there any issue with pressure build up in case the hot water is not used for more than few hours.
3. Is there a requirement of a pressure relief valve (like a pressure cooker) of 100psi or less
4. As this is a full air tight system, there is no way we can clean it. Is this okay as only cauvery water would be used for this. Any damages due to scaling ?
5. Does use of refractory bricks help to construct the structure.
Regards
Anantha
Traditional Water Heater (Hande Ole)
Re: Traditional Water Heater (Hande Ole)
Please share what transpired you to revive the handeole tradition, Not to discourage your DIY effort , You can buy off the shelf stainless steel \ copper wood fired water heaters available with all necessary insulation\plumbing\safety (temp and pressure gauge and relief valves),primarily suited to places where clean energy is not available. http://sunheaters.in/products.php
It is true that copper is antimicrobial and essential trace element ,and so is the misconception among some that Copper Hande ole with firewood is beneficial to skin and hair and Water from 5 star rated Ceramic lined Electric water heater is unhealthy and alopecic, on the contrary the latter is more safe.
The copper vessels that are available on AC char street for drinking and storage are from recycled electronics/electricals, Electrical grade copper\structural grade copper has to be berilliyum alloy(1 to 3 %) , Verbally the vendor assures you that it is a pure copper vessel and noway you can easily verify the composition. To me SS container is more safe.
Most copper and brass ware are from cheap wire\electrical salvaged\scrap in unregulated\unscientific crude foundries owned by greedy unqualified business men supported by lazy\bribe hungry bureaucrats responsible for metrology,pollution and health safety .Addition of lead to copper brings profit in terms of weight and quick machineability. Beryllium is cat 1 carcinogen and causes skin diseases . The ground and water composition in modern times has changed drastically the copper corrosion\ scales chemistry is different now, the cupric nitrates are also carcinogens. The toxic fumes containing CO from improper combustion in handeole is both environmental and health hazard . Imagine people storing tap water in copper vessels bought on ac char street and storing it overnight , drinking it in morning for the perceived health benefits. The concept is correct and will only be beneficial if we ever get pure copper vessel and of course with Deionized water.
In US the plumbing is predominantly copper , however the plumbing grade copper heavily regulated has to be 99.99% pure with silver brazing. 1300 ppb is the copper leaching standard.
It is true that copper is antimicrobial and essential trace element ,and so is the misconception among some that Copper Hande ole with firewood is beneficial to skin and hair and Water from 5 star rated Ceramic lined Electric water heater is unhealthy and alopecic, on the contrary the latter is more safe.
The copper vessels that are available on AC char street for drinking and storage are from recycled electronics/electricals, Electrical grade copper\structural grade copper has to be berilliyum alloy(1 to 3 %) , Verbally the vendor assures you that it is a pure copper vessel and noway you can easily verify the composition. To me SS container is more safe.
Most copper and brass ware are from cheap wire\electrical salvaged\scrap in unregulated\unscientific crude foundries owned by greedy unqualified business men supported by lazy\bribe hungry bureaucrats responsible for metrology,pollution and health safety .Addition of lead to copper brings profit in terms of weight and quick machineability. Beryllium is cat 1 carcinogen and causes skin diseases . The ground and water composition in modern times has changed drastically the copper corrosion\ scales chemistry is different now, the cupric nitrates are also carcinogens. The toxic fumes containing CO from improper combustion in handeole is both environmental and health hazard . Imagine people storing tap water in copper vessels bought on ac char street and storing it overnight , drinking it in morning for the perceived health benefits. The concept is correct and will only be beneficial if we ever get pure copper vessel and of course with Deionized water.
In US the plumbing is predominantly copper , however the plumbing grade copper heavily regulated has to be 99.99% pure with silver brazing. 1300 ppb is the copper leaching standard.
Re: Traditional Water Heater (Hande Ole)
You just opened up a good discussion with thoughtful insights. Thanks for this.
The plan to build this traditional hande ole came up because of manifold reasons
1. It still helps us keep up our traditional system in which Hande ole is seen and worshipped as a Goddess lakshmi.
2. For health benefits by using copper vessels
3. The twigs of 9 trees like peeple tree and others have great anti microbial properties which when lit will help kill parasites, mosquitoes and bacteria in and around the house. I plan to use these twigs along with coconut husks to light up the hande.
4. Lastly the water from this hande ole is very refreshing & relaxing, this is the main reason for me to go forward for this system.
1. Visited atleast 10 shops or more and found what they were trying to sell and the rates
2. Found that these copper vessel have different models and are sold in kgs & not in terms of litres.
3. The different models are shown based on the number of joints & the top ring thickness .
4. Found that a particular model is called Hubli Hande which has just one joint. Lesser the joints longer is the life.
5. Visited more shops to see if they have such models and found that rate was varying between 550-700 rs per Kg
6. There is a second hand market in which the shop owner will try to sell off the older one as a new, we need to be careful about this. Just be seeing the joints you can find out if this is used or not.
7. The thicker the ring, then there is more lead. so should select the ones which have thin rings, but all of these vessels will have lead in the rings.
8. Check if the Shopkeeper has the 2 or more vessels of the same type to ensure they are actually new & not second hand.
9. I got the ring removed from my hande as it can cause lead contamination. A thick copper sheet is welded instead.
10. Check for the thickness of the copper material, the thicker the material longer is the life.
But none of these will help if the foundry manufacturing itself has mixed lead & copper. We have to leave that to fate.
The plan to build this traditional hande ole came up because of manifold reasons
1. It still helps us keep up our traditional system in which Hande ole is seen and worshipped as a Goddess lakshmi.
2. For health benefits by using copper vessels
3. The twigs of 9 trees like peeple tree and others have great anti microbial properties which when lit will help kill parasites, mosquitoes and bacteria in and around the house. I plan to use these twigs along with coconut husks to light up the hande.
4. Lastly the water from this hande ole is very refreshing & relaxing, this is the main reason for me to go forward for this system.
Agree with you on the above that these are valid concerns. Even though we cannot completely ensure that we get pure copper vessels, some tweaks can help us get better vessels. This is what I did for selecting the better oneMost copper and brass ware are from cheap wire\electrical salvaged\scrap in unregulated\unscientific crude foundries owned by greedy unqualified business men supported by lazy\bribe hungry bureaucrats responsible for metrology,pollution and health safety .Addition of lead to copper brings profit in terms of weight and quick machineability. Beryllium is cat 1 carcinogen and causes skin diseases . The ground and water composition in modern times has changed drastically the copper corrosion\ scales chemistry is different now, the cupric nitrates are also carcinogens. The toxic fumes containing CO from improper combustion in handeole is both environmental and health hazard . Imagine people storing tap water in copper vessels bought on ac char street and storing it overnight , drinking it in morning for the perceived health benefits. The concept is correct and will only be beneficial if we ever get pure copper vessel and of course with Deionized water.
1. Visited atleast 10 shops or more and found what they were trying to sell and the rates
2. Found that these copper vessel have different models and are sold in kgs & not in terms of litres.
3. The different models are shown based on the number of joints & the top ring thickness .
4. Found that a particular model is called Hubli Hande which has just one joint. Lesser the joints longer is the life.
5. Visited more shops to see if they have such models and found that rate was varying between 550-700 rs per Kg
6. There is a second hand market in which the shop owner will try to sell off the older one as a new, we need to be careful about this. Just be seeing the joints you can find out if this is used or not.
7. The thicker the ring, then there is more lead. so should select the ones which have thin rings, but all of these vessels will have lead in the rings.
8. Check if the Shopkeeper has the 2 or more vessels of the same type to ensure they are actually new & not second hand.
9. I got the ring removed from my hande as it can cause lead contamination. A thick copper sheet is welded instead.
10. Check for the thickness of the copper material, the thicker the material longer is the life.
But none of these will help if the foundry manufacturing itself has mixed lead & copper. We have to leave that to fate.
Re: Traditional Water Heater (Hande Ole)
My cousin house in Mysore has this type of hander with different construction method. They have constructed in such a way that the smoke will go around the copper vessel (Hande) instead of directly to the ventilation pipe. By this method the water gets heated much faster than traditional method.They have taken mason service from Nanjanagud city.
Sealing the Hande might result in formation of alague (dangerous to health) which will happen in Copper water jug if not used sometime.
Sealing the Hande might result in formation of alague (dangerous to health) which will happen in Copper water jug if not used sometime.
Re: Traditional Water Heater (Hande Ole)
Okay !
Actually copper is a biocide which means living organisms cannot survive in it. That's why our ancestors used copper as it would kill Virus/Bacteria. Now with Algae, it can survive in copper but as it is a soft material, it cannot stick to it. Since i am planning a air tight container, Algae would grow in the absence of air for some time giving out Nitrous Oxide but eventually will not be able to survive.
Since water & the tank gets heated to around 300-350C, no living organism can survive such heats. If I can flush out a bucket of water before using then it should be fine is my take.
BTW got the Hande delivered yesterday with the air tight arrangement done. Shall post it's pics.
Actually copper is a biocide which means living organisms cannot survive in it. That's why our ancestors used copper as it would kill Virus/Bacteria. Now with Algae, it can survive in copper but as it is a soft material, it cannot stick to it. Since i am planning a air tight container, Algae would grow in the absence of air for some time giving out Nitrous Oxide but eventually will not be able to survive.
Since water & the tank gets heated to around 300-350C, no living organism can survive such heats. If I can flush out a bucket of water before using then it should be fine is my take.
BTW got the Hande delivered yesterday with the air tight arrangement done. Shall post it's pics.
Re: Traditional Water Heater (Hande Ole)
Hi Ananthu
here is my few cents.
1) traditional Hande ole is not energy efficient. It only converts around 25% of burnt energy to heat the water. More over it will be a fixed installation which occupies more space, when its installed inside the bath rooms.
2) Going for traditional hande ole needs continuous availability of wood/twigs...etc. which is not so easy in urban areas like benglauru. So in long term, it will be an expensive affair. There are few homes, which uses this traditional mechanism only to cut the fuel cost by burning their paper, Coconut chips...etc. Not by buying the wood from outside.
3) Hande ole creates lot of fumes and especially if it is installed inside the house, like bath room,s it makes all the walls & roof into black color in just few years. Todays bengaluru generation doesn't have immunity to cope with such fuming environment and younger generation doesn't know how to fire the hande ole also. They are more comfortable with switching ON or OFF the geysers. So you need to think of back ups for you in case you are not there at home at certain occasions. There are many fire accidents by beginners by throwing the kerosene or petrol while lighting up the fuel.
4) Apart from the outside pollution, it also creates enough pollution inside the house, as today's houses doesn't come with effective cross ventilation as there will be lot of construction violation in terms of set back rules.
5) Releasing fumes to outside without proper chimney route to a greater height creates issues with neighbours if your area is fully developed and & thickly populated one. As we find minimum G+2 buildings everywhere now and your chimney must be atleast 20 ft that height.
6) Even though BWSSB supplies so called Kaveri water, in many areas, it is mixed with Borewell water and you can see some level of scaling in all taps and utensil when you heat the water. Over a period of time, a closed Hande will become inefficient heating system in the house.
7) Greater risk, while heating it if there is no continuous supply of cold water, there are chances of Blasting also due to excess pressure built inside, as we see in many hotels and small scale industrial boilers.
8) Instead of going for a recycle copper hande, you can use better choices like Gujarat Boiler...etc which are compact, energy efficient & has mobility, You can shift their location as & when you need with modification in plumbing work or u can even use flexible PVC pipes.
Study the pros and cons thoroughly and take a wise decision.
http://www.solarheater.co.in/wood-fired ... eater.html
here is my few cents.
1) traditional Hande ole is not energy efficient. It only converts around 25% of burnt energy to heat the water. More over it will be a fixed installation which occupies more space, when its installed inside the bath rooms.
2) Going for traditional hande ole needs continuous availability of wood/twigs...etc. which is not so easy in urban areas like benglauru. So in long term, it will be an expensive affair. There are few homes, which uses this traditional mechanism only to cut the fuel cost by burning their paper, Coconut chips...etc. Not by buying the wood from outside.
3) Hande ole creates lot of fumes and especially if it is installed inside the house, like bath room,s it makes all the walls & roof into black color in just few years. Todays bengaluru generation doesn't have immunity to cope with such fuming environment and younger generation doesn't know how to fire the hande ole also. They are more comfortable with switching ON or OFF the geysers. So you need to think of back ups for you in case you are not there at home at certain occasions. There are many fire accidents by beginners by throwing the kerosene or petrol while lighting up the fuel.
4) Apart from the outside pollution, it also creates enough pollution inside the house, as today's houses doesn't come with effective cross ventilation as there will be lot of construction violation in terms of set back rules.
5) Releasing fumes to outside without proper chimney route to a greater height creates issues with neighbours if your area is fully developed and & thickly populated one. As we find minimum G+2 buildings everywhere now and your chimney must be atleast 20 ft that height.
6) Even though BWSSB supplies so called Kaveri water, in many areas, it is mixed with Borewell water and you can see some level of scaling in all taps and utensil when you heat the water. Over a period of time, a closed Hande will become inefficient heating system in the house.
7) Greater risk, while heating it if there is no continuous supply of cold water, there are chances of Blasting also due to excess pressure built inside, as we see in many hotels and small scale industrial boilers.
8) Instead of going for a recycle copper hande, you can use better choices like Gujarat Boiler...etc which are compact, energy efficient & has mobility, You can shift their location as & when you need with modification in plumbing work or u can even use flexible PVC pipes.
Study the pros and cons thoroughly and take a wise decision.
http://www.solarheater.co.in/wood-fired ... eater.html
Re: Traditional Water Heater (Hande Ole)
Hi msn,
Thanks for the inputs.
I am getting it installed in my terrace and is getting constructed in such a place where there can be potentially no issues with neighbors. This is not a primary source of water heating and would be used very occasionally during festivals, so it being a less efficient system is ok with me.
I explored the gujarat boiler system before taking a plunge and found that the initial cost is expensive. One vendor quoted around 30k + installation charges.
Since this would be used quite occasionally, on the day of use I would think we would be around it to light the fire and see if it's still burning. Since this would be a constant monitoring till the fire is extinguished, belief is this would be safe, shall keep in mind about the pressure aspects that you raised.
Thanks for the inputs.
I am getting it installed in my terrace and is getting constructed in such a place where there can be potentially no issues with neighbors. This is not a primary source of water heating and would be used very occasionally during festivals, so it being a less efficient system is ok with me.
I explored the gujarat boiler system before taking a plunge and found that the initial cost is expensive. One vendor quoted around 30k + installation charges.
Since this would be used quite occasionally, on the day of use I would think we would be around it to light the fire and see if it's still burning. Since this would be a constant monitoring till the fire is extinguished, belief is this would be safe, shall keep in mind about the pressure aspects that you raised.